S02 E04 - Ariel Taylor, BSW, RSW and Four Times Surrogate - On Supporting Postpartum Parents, Surrogacy, Trauma-Informed and Individualized Perinatal Care
Faces of Postpartum—The Podcast is a show about the postpartum period and its multiple variations, hosted by Ariane Audet.
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S02E04
Ariel Taylor (aka Carried With Love) - BSW, RSW & Surrogate
This episode is THE episode for you if you are pregnant, freshly postpartum, or want to know more about how to truly care for postpartum people.
Ariel Taylor is a four-time surrogate and therapist (social worker) based in Ontario, Canada. She specializes in fertility, surrogacy and postpartum. In this episode, she shares her knowledge about perinatal mental health in general, and particularly during the COVID-19 pandemic.
With our founder, Ariane Audet, they discuss postpartum recovery, legislative changes to better support pregnant, birthing, and postpartum parents in their journey, as well as her personal postpartum and surrogacy stories.
Show Notes
Ariel Taylor Instagram account Carried With Love (@carried.with.love)
Fertility Matters: Canadian organization on reproductive health goals and fertility.
Canadian Perinatal Mental Health Collaborative / Collectif Canadien pour la santé mentale périnatale: website, Twitter, Instagram.
Full Transcript
Ariane: How are you today?
Ariel: I'm good. Good. I'm good. Always busy of course. But.
Ariane: What is busy?
Ariel: Oh, so I, so I'm doing my I'm gearing up for another egg donation. And so, I'm kind of getting all the stuff ready for that. It's a big time commitment sometimes. So I had my mandatory counseling session this morning for it, which is funny, cause I am a counselor and I'm a fertility therapist. So it's like, it was so funny. Cause we kind of just talked about everything and I was like, oh yeah, I know all of the stuff that you're going to ask me. And then I sign my contracts this afternoon with my lawyer. So yeah, it's been a, it's been a busy day!
Ariane: Do you have already someone who will get your eggs?
Ariel: Yes, two. So this donation is actually a split donation. So that means that my eggs will get split kind of right down the middle for two different families. So this is the first time I've done a split donation, but I have a lot of eggs. I produce a lot of eggs, so it makes sense to kind of be able to split them.
So one couple is an like is an anonymous donation. So the only thing I know about them is that they are a heterosexual couple in Ontario. The second couple is a known donation. And so there are two dads and they're from, from Hungary actually. So we've been able to FaceTime and stuff with them and they are all, they will also be using a surrogate too.
So we're hoping to stay in contact and visit and maybe to here one day.
Ariane: Your eggs are going to be shipped to Hungary?
Ariel: No, they'll actually stay here because they're using a Canadian clinic. And then their surrogate will be Canadian too. So their surrogate will transfer and everything like that at the clinic here.
Ariane: This is wonderful.
Ariel: So it really is amazing.
Ariane: You carry babies, but you also give your eggs to others so they can make families. Do you know, this is a super personal question and I just love that I can actually ask it. So I had a hysterectomy, but I'm still can you give your eggs if you had a hysterectomy?
Ariel: I believe you can, but the, the guidelines for egg donors are pretty strict.
Sometimes. Like a lot of times they want donors under the age of 30. They kind of want like a certain like different like levels and all that kind of stuff to be at a certain point. So it can be kind of like challenging, but theoretically yes, you could.
Ariane: That's crazy. Again, science. Amazing. All right. So where do you live in Canada?
Ariel: So I'm in London, Ontario, which is kind of halfway between Windsor and Toronto.
Ariane: So I am also Canadian, so I felt very compelled to reach out. I was like, I feel that this can only go well.
Ariel: Obviously honestly.
Ariane: We're super nice. We're funny.
Ariel: Parents been in a lockdown for 18 months, so we're all stir crazy in our homes, you know.
Ariane: Especially, especially if you have kids, it's just like, it's, it's a complete shit show here.
Oh yeah. Yeah. As I wrote to you yesterday, we'll do this interview in two parts. Some want your personal story and all the Instagram stuff, which I thought was really funny, and which was down yesterday. I don't know how any of us survived. Super weird. Freeing and yet also and then everything that has to do with the postpartum period as a new parent and we can get into surrogacy too. But I want to honor what you wanted to talk about and yes, it will absolutely resonate with, with the audience.
Ariel: Yeah. That's a lot of the work that I'm doing right now is I find in my counseling practice a lot of the shift I'm finding is I'm working with a lot of postpartum moms. And I think even more specifically moms who are postpartum, or I guess I want to try to be careful what we're using, like inclusive language.
So not just moms, but anybody who gives birth right and, and has children. And a lot of them have done fertility treatments. And I think there is an added layer of, I don't know, complications or issues when you work so hard to have a baby and you maybe spend a lot of money and a lot of time, and you give yourself needles every day and you go through whatever the process was in your fertility journey to get pregnant.
And then you develop postpartum depression. And I think there's an added layer of guilt and shame and everything that I don't think most regular therapists would understand the layering of that. Right. I think therapists can be trained for postpartum depression, but I think where my specialty comes in really is that added layer of what happens when you develop postpartum depression after you paid 30 grand for your baby.
Ariane: Yeah. What happens?
Ariel: Well, and I think there's just so much guilt, right? There's a lot of shame. There's a lot of, oh my God, I wanted this. And you know, it's just so complex. Right. And I think the building blocks definitely follow the same thing like, like if you're treating normal postpartum depression, but I think just having that awareness of that added deeper layer, which is where my expertise really comes in, in the infertility part of everything. You know, kind of just, I think people makes people feel a little bit more .Supported and like they're understood by their therapists.
Right. I see a lot of people that are like, I had a great therapist, they know nothing about fertility. And so I have to sit there for three sessions, explaining all the medications and my side effects and you know, what all these acronym mean, and all that kind of stuff. Whereas I already know that. So it kind of saves people some time knowing that I'm well versed in what they would have had to go through to get these babies here.
Ariane: Yes. Instead of educating your therapist, you can actually get into the healing part faster. Yes. Yeah. And it's interesting because there's a lot of talk around trauma informed care in general, not just in mental health care, but in general. And I'm not saying that infertility issues are traumatic, although they can be absolutely.
But also individualized care. And it's kind of the responsibility of the provider to actually also be versed, especially if you treat postpartum people to kind of be first in, in a variety of I can never say this word -variety - of topics.
Ariel: Yeah.
Ariane: So you are the mother of Scarlet. She's six and a half. You are a therapist specialize in fertility, surrogacy and postpartum. You are also the gorgeous human behind the Instagram account "carried with love, "which was the first Instagram account that I found after looking for surrogacy. Because much as with infertility, there's a big community for fertility people out there in, on, on social media. Less so about surrogacy.
And so when I started looking, I was like, it must happen. It was not as much maybe thought there would be, and the way you actually educate people and are so knowledgeable and so generous with your, not just with your knowledge, but also your emotions. It just feels very hospitable was very, I don't know.
I just wanted to commend you for that because it's not, it's not everywhere and you just, you're so optimistic and also caring, but not in a, you know, you gotta be happy at all costs. way. It was very was very nice to, to find you.
You had seven embryos transferred.
Ariel: In total. Yeah, not all at one time. I mean, don't get me wrong. That was a thing a number of years ago when they would do that. But no.
Ariane: And this is why people ended up with like triplets.
Ariel: Yeah. That's exactly why this happened. Yeah. Yeah. It was very common even like, you know, the oldest IVF babies are not even 40 yet in Canada. I, you know, and I'm not a hundred percent sure what the US I think they're a little, like a few years ahead, but the oldest baby ever born via gestational surrogacy in Canada is not even 40.
So just this recent, very recent. And it wasn't even that long ago when they would throw like seven embryos in there and be like, well, let's see what happens. Things are a lot different now.
Ariane: I'm glad that we live in learn.
Ariel: I know, I know.
Ariane: Isn't there a TV show on Netflix called, the Octonauts. Maybe?
Ariel: Octonauts. Yeah.
Ariane: This is where my brain went. And you, so I imagine you had, you were a surrogate five, four times plus scarlet.
Ariel: Yeah. Yeah. And one of those surrogacies was a miscarriage. And actually this is something that I kind of got a little bit of criticism for on my Instagram. I'll be honest. Because I I, when I first started, so I guess to back up, I started my Instagram account, which is carried with love about a year and a half ago.
And really it kind of came about because through my previous surrogacy, I had a Facebook page. Right. Keep people updated. I know not everybody cares about surrogacy, so I kind of just started a dedicated Facebook group. The problem was is the interface was not very easy to use. It was difficult to post and keep updated chronologically.
So I started an Instagram account. I started that last year about, well, actually about a year and a half ago now. And I had one photo right in the beginning go completely viral. And it was a photo of my daughter holding up a sign with the ultrasound picture of our first ultrasound. And it said, "my mom's pregnant, but it's not mine or it's not ours." I can't remember the exact wording.
Surrogate baby coming, April, 2020, kind of our 2020. So that was kind of, this photo went viral. And then I started doing podcast interviews about surrogacy, and I did a couple of guests like writing spots on different websites and interviews and things like that.
So it really just kind of took off and you know, me being the type of person I am, I'm like, well, if I have a platform, I'm going to use it! Because I think, especially, I will say that Canadian surrogacy is I think a little bit looked down on in the generalized fertility community only because our Canadian laws are very behind.
The assisted human reproduction act is in that we have in Canada that outlines all the rules about surrogacy is very outdated. It's not reflective at all of our current climate of infertility or the need for surrogates and donors. And yeah, it, it just not outline things properly. So I see as well with that, there's not a lot of regulation about who can be surrogates, like in the circumstances that everything can happen. And so I think countries like the US sometimes we'll look at Canada and think that our rules are a little bit lax which I think they are to be perfectly honest.
I think our regulations for who can become a surrogate are a little bit too lax. And you know, I think there should be a little bit more stricter guidelines. So the American society of reproductive medicine is what many fertility clinics and doctors go off of. These are the guidelines set out about what is safe.
They're, research-based, they're going to be good information. Canada does not follow all of them, not all fertility, doctors follow all of them. You know, but I think those are best practices. So a lot of what I did on my Instagram was really trying to give good, solid information for the masses.
Right? I am not here to try to get people to become surrogates. That's not my intention. I think in the beginning, a lot of people thought I worked for an agency or thought I worked to recruit people. And that definitely is not the case. You know, I think surrogacy is wonderful. I don't think it's for everybody.
And I think my job is to make sure that, you know, you can be educated and learn about surrogacy so that you can support those people going through it or people that you know, or infertility or all that kind of stuff. Right. But I also think so much what I do probably discourages a lot of people from becoming surrogates.
Cause the reality is it's not for everybody, you know? So I think if somebody gets a chance to see what it's like up close and personal and they can understand exactly what goes into it, it's going to help them make an informed decision. Right. It's not about just recruiting surrogates and you know, having all the hunters.
Ariane: Sorry, I just, I just can't imagine like people, this is what cross their mind . Just blows my mind sometimes.
Ariel: I know, I know. I honestly think I probably discouraged people from becoming surrogates cause I'm like, well, yes, you know, there is that, but you're also going to have to do this and this and you know, what, if something goes wrong and do you have a support system and yeah.
Ariane: And so when did you become, when did you think about becoming a surrogate?
Ariel: So I kind of started my daughter was six months old very young. These are one of those recommendations that I probably should not have been approved initially to become a surrogate only because I was only six months postpartum from a C-section when I signed up with an agency and I got pregnant about right before my daughter turned one.
So the American society of reproductive medicine says that people should wait 12 months after a vaginal delivery and 18 months after a C-section before becoming pregnant. Again, I obviously did not follow that. This is one of those perfect examples of I know better now. So I do better now. And so even though, you know, I made mistakes in my early surrogacy journey, just based on the fact that I wasn't fully informed about everything.
That's why I think I go over and above now to make sure people do know. You know, I did a post on my Instagram all about, you need to wait 12 months after a delivery minimum before you get pregnant again, because it's safer for you. Even though there are lots of surrogates that I have seen transfer six months postpartum, I've seen surrogates transfer three months postpartum, which I honestly think is absurd.
I don't think we're looking out for women's best interests when we're getting people pregnant three months after they had a baby. But you know, there's another whole podcast for you.
Ariane: But so how was your postpartum period with Scarlet and what led you to kind of be like, okay, this is the path that I want to follow.
Ariel: So it's funny with Scarlet, you know, like I I was a nanny for a number of years. I, I was a kind of a career nanny. Before she was born and I nannied for a bunch of different families, three different sets of twins, newborns. And so I was like, oh, I'm so good at this. Like, I'm good at with kids. I worked at daycare for a long time.
My whole entire first degree is in childhood study is so I had a lot of experience with kids and you know, I was like, oh yeah, I'm all ready to be a mom, all this kind of stuff. And then I became a mom and it was nothing of what I expected. It would be like. Nothing.
Ariane: They do that to you don't they?
Ariel: I, I struggled after that. It was, it was not what I thought it was going to be. And well, you know, I think I kind of thought that when you have a baby and maybe this is for some people, this was definitely not my experience, and I'm willing to bet that this is probably more people's experiences than not, but I just, I, I was fumbling through trying to figure out what I was supposed to do every day. You know, and I, I thought that at the minute I had this baby, I would somewhere in my brain, get this innate, you know, instinct mom's switch that turned on and then it never did. It's like you're sitting there flicking the light switch and nothing's turning on and you're like, okay, where's my instincts,. Cause they're not here.
And it was hard. It was really hard. Postpartum is not an easy time. It's not an easy time for, I think every, any anybody But, you know, I was, I was trying to figure out how to be a mom. I had a C-section, I was recovering from a C-section. I did not want my planned home birth turned into a planned C-section when I had a breech baby at 36 weeks.
She wasn't born at 36 weeks, but she flipped breech. So, you know, I think I, yeah, I was not a happy camper. We were planning that unmedicated home birth.
Ariane: And she's still treating you like this even to this day?
Ariel: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I think it's really just Scarlet's personality. That of course she would be breached.
You know, so I struggled the first little bit, right. I was fumbling through trying to figure it out. I was figuring out how to breastfeed. I was, you know, recovering from surgery. I was trying to take care of this tiny human that relied on me for everything. And I was barely remembering to take a shower and eat food.
You know, so it was tough. And I think the hardest thing about the postpartum period is, and this is what research tells us too, is that one of your biggest indicators for success is having good support system. And then, you know, I think we forcibly all these moms end up being so isolated in this postpartum period in general, you know, I think, you know, you're, you're trying not to get your baby sick and this is even before COVID right.
Even before COVID, we're not adding in a pandemic right now. This is just regular life. You're trying not to take your baby out before they get their vaccines or like nobody can, can touch them cause you don't want them to get sick. And you're trying to figure out how to feed them and take care of them and a sleep schedule and you're not sleeping.
And, you know, oftentimes I think, you know, by the nature of the beast, your own self care and mental health goes down because you're trying to keep somebody else alive that relies on you a hundred percent of the time and it can be really challenging. And then you throw in a pandemic the last 18 months.
And we are seeing in Canada, massive, massive increases in anxiety and depression in postpartum parents. And I'm talking massive increases. There was a research study done. And let me see here. It was done recently, I, I think at the end of, oh, sorry, June of 2020, there was a big research study done by the university of Alberta. And they did a whole bunch of like self-reported. So participants would self-report anxiety and depression and all that kind of stuff. Pre pandemic, and then after, like having a baby during a pandemic. And what did the pandemic bring? Right. Isolation not being able to have support people. So not only do we have, and then you want to talk about the amount of birth trauma that people had, not being able to have their partners present being at, having to recover on their own, all that kind of stuff.
Right? So it was kind of this perfect storm of situations. And this research study kind of found that pre pandemic people were self-reporting their anxiety and depression kind of in the 20 ish percent. It was like 25 to 27%. Don't quote me exactly, but something around there.
After the pandemic, that rate went up to the seventies.
So we're talking 70 plus percent of postpartum people are self-reporting increased rates of anxiety and depress. That is a massive amount of people. That's a massive amount of, of parents and a massive amount of babies. And it's not good for anybody. And then you combine that with the fact that there is zero follow up, basically after you give birth and you're getting one six week postpartum phone call to assess everything .
Ariane: You don't even go in?
Ariel: I got a phone call, six weeks postpartum. Not from the doctor. Now I had a midwife, so I did get some in-person follow-ups I actually got three. But from the OB that did my last C-section actually in April because I just had a baby in April. I got one phone call and not once was I asked by the doctor about my mental health, which I mean was fine.
I mean, I like, I actually did quite well. With surrogate deliveries and postpartum was quite well for me, but you know, basically the conversation was, how do you feel? Do you want birth control?
Ariane: Yeah. It's very focused on, on the, the, your sex life for some reason.
Ariel: Yeah. Yes. And it's like, okay, you're cleared to go home and you can have sex now. And you're like, okay, well I just had a baby six weeks ago and I'm exhausted. So maybe not, but thank you for asking about me.
Ariane: Yeah, exactly. So it's not because I often have interviews with people from the US and I'm from Canada. And so we, I know kind of the things are different and you talk a lot about accessibility to services, and I'm wondering how, you know, we can talk about postpartum care. We can also talk about prenatal care, so whatever you see fit, but what's your take on the access to periodontal care. Let's just say that in Canada, in general and in Ontario, because by province, it's different.
Ariel: Maternal mental health by the way, which needs to be renamed, I think we need to probably stop calling it maternal mental health.
But there's an aside for you? Honestly is lacking. It is subpar. I don't even think it's. Like it's theirs. It's not even enough to a standard at all of what it should be. I don't think that women are being screened for depression and anxiety while pregnant: prenatal anxiety and depression happens quite common.
And I don't think a lot of women realize it because they're like, oh, well I'm just pregnant or I'm hormonal. And then not realizing that they meet like clinical guidelines for, you know, prenatal, anxiety and depression, which is really hard. It's not, it's really difficult. And this is something I treat in my practice.
I actually see quite a few clients that are suffering with prenatal depression. Prenatal anxiety, postpartum, depression, and anxiety. And it's not easy. And the accessibility to services is what's really lacking. So kind of some like interesting stuff from this research study that I found, cause this is, we have very little research right now about, especially the effects of like a global pandemic.
And so with postpartum depression, some of the biggest indicators of, you know, getting postpartum depression is isolation, not having support you know, not having the resources or availability to give yourself some self care. And by self-care I'm meaning like, are you sleeping? Are you eating? Do you go outside once a week?
You know, once a day, once a week, I was going to say once a week, but I'm like, but you know what? I've been a new mom and I've been a postpartum mom. And you sometimes you don't leave your house for a week. And then you're like, oh my God, has it been seven days since I've seen sunshine? Yes. Like, it's not like it's uncommon.
Ariane: Sometimes it's just someone to actually take you outside. Or, you know, a friend you're going to meet at a coffee shop or things like that. This is, and yeah, we're not talking about mani-pedi here. We're really talking about like a basic self care.
Ariel: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think, you know, a big thing too, is I don't, like, I think that's twofold.
I don't think the general public realizes that postpartum depression and anxiety and prenatal depression and anxiety is as prevalent as it is because a lot of the data we have goes on self reported data. Because healthcare providers aren't screening for it routinely. And I'm sorry, but if you're a postpartum mom and you haven't slept and you never see your doctor, and then on a six week phone call, they're like, how are you doing?
I don't think you're probably going to tell them and be like, Hey, actually, I've had these really bad intrusive thoughts about driving my car off the road. Can you help me? People don't say that as an aside, that's actually the most common intrusive thought that women have is driving their car off the road.
Yeah.
Ariane: I've heard a lot of dropping my baby down the steps to like, somehow what will happen if I just drop my baby down the steps and these are not uncommon at all.
Ariel: They're not uncommon and they're terrifying. They're terrifying for the person feeling them. Yeah. And they don't mean that you want to hurt your baby.
I think that's a big misconception is that people think, well, if I tell somebody that I'm having thoughts of, of, or I have intrusive thoughts about my baby getting hurt, or me hurting my baby, they're going to take my baby away. And that is not what happens. Do you know, this is common side effects of postpartum depression and postpartum anxiety.
And it's intrusive thoughts. Intrusive thoughts are not realistic necessarily. And they're not based in fact, it's our brain kind of coming up with these thoughts. And they're really scary. I think a lot of people can feel really guilty after having them. And then that furthers the isolation of people, not asking for help.
And, you know, as a, as a therapist, it kind of specializes in a lot of postpartum. This I think is a breakthrough in clients can come to counseling and really talk openly about this stuff because you can't heal until somebody knows what's going on and you can't get the help you need and assess until we're really honest and really open.
But when we don't have good relationships with our providers, we're not getting that level of care. It's just not the same.
Ariane: Is it also universal health care in ontario?
Ariel: It is. And you know, universal healthcare is, is great. You know, of course we're very thankful for that. I mean, it doesn't cost to have a baby. I think that's probably a big difference between countries that don't have health care.
But mental health care is still lacking. Right? It can take, it can take a very long time, months to, up to a year to get onto a publicly funded waitlist for counseling. There's a lot of private counseling. So for example, like I do private practice, right? So, but I'm also one person. I am one person specialized in fertility and post-partum, and you know, all this kind of stuff.
And I operate virtually and I do everything virtually, but there's just not, there's not enough of me. And I'm not accessible to everybody. And I think that's the reality of the situation here that we talked about was the accessibility to services. And you know, most private practice therapists. You know, you have a set fee to pay and now for Ontario, because I'm a registered social worker, so I can be claimed for people's benefits that they live in Ontario. So if you have work benefits or you know, like extended benefits plans I can be covered. And a lot of insurance companies are now including social workers because social workers are now taking on all of the counseling role. Right. Whereas before it was like, oh, you go see a psychologist. Well, the difference is a psychologist charges 250 an hour, and I charge 110. So in some ways we're a lot more accessible, but the reality is, you know, $110 an hour for a session once a week adds up and it's not accessible to everybody. And although there might be some benefits provided to people through, you know, their workplace benefits, it might only cover or a thousand to 1200 or 1500 in a year.
Ariane: Yeah. Usually 10 sessions they will cover.
Ariel: Yes. Yeah. So it's, it can be difficult. And then the other thing too here is that, you know, postpartum depression does not discriminate. No, you know, it can happen to the wealthiest of celebrities and it can happen to people in poverty and it doesn't discriminate.
And this was actually a really, when I was reading this research study from Alberta, it was actually touching on some of this as a limitations to their studies and something that they found really interesting was that the there were really high rates of anxiety and depression for the group that they surveyed.
But the group that they surveyed were primarily Caucasian, married, lived in single family homes and almost all of them had some post-secondary. So this is a group that typically have very little risk factors for depression and anxiety in general. Like their, their risk factors would be very low, but rates were very high member and we're talking like in the 70% of self rated anxiety and depression.
And so the study kind of pointed out that the limitations were here is like, what about everybody else? What about people that, that are living in poverty that are living paycheck to paycheck that don't have time to take off work that have to go back to work at six weeks postpartum because they will lose their job that don't have access to childcare. People that don't, you know, that are in domestic violence situations, people that are homeless, people like postpartum depression affects those people too.
And so what do we do when we now have this? Like, you know, we have a pandemic, but we also have this like catastrophic, you know, wave of isolated, new parents that are causing a secondary mental health crisis here.
Ariane: Yeah. And as always, we're talking about decades of just ignoring the problem and then suddenly we have a pandemic and it's just exploding into our face.
Not only, you know, it's a society problem, but it's also, and it's the feminist in me, like a misogynist one. It was normal for women to be hormonal, to be crazy, to be like, somehow our, I say women, birthing people are hormonals you know, you fall under the category of crazy.
And, and we normalize that the crazy mom overwhelmed mom, and it's such a, it's so damaging. It's damaging for the humans and it's also damaging for the families. And to me, the fact that we've completely forgotten about the population that actually keep the species alive, just blows my mind on a daily basis.
And I've said that before.
Ariel: Well, I think it also kind of follows this just general idea that women are undervalued in society in most cases, in almost all lines of work and in character, government and everything. And, you know, we're talking like when we look at like perinatal mood disorders, you know, and this is what people would call the, the hormonal or the crazy, or your PMs saying there are, there are specified.
Like they are a very specific mood disorders associated with with periods and getting cycles. And like, there is like, some people are extremely depressed certain months or certain weeks out of a month due to these cycles. Right. And periods and all kinds of stuff. Right. And I think we're just kind of ingrained to be like, oh, we're just being hormonal or you're just PMS, and then we have these people that are suffering and we're blowing it off and we don't do it to any other ailment that afftects men.
Ariane: No, absolutely not.
Ariel: But for some reason, this is one that, you know, only affects women or people who identify as women. And it's just, it's not taken seriously. And I think it's honestly time to change that narrative.
Ariane: Yeah. Yeah. We don't let man have a limp dick, but we will let us, you know, bleed to death each month.
I remember having suicidal ideation each month when I was a teenager every time, like the day before I would get my period, because I was like, what is going on with me? I just wants to kill myself. And then I would just bleed in hemorrhage for two days and it would be like that over and over again. And until I had babies and suddenly people were interested in my uterus and they were like, well, maybe something is not though, so right with your uterus.
So, so maybe like you are, have the choice, but I would remove it. And I did. And now I'm like, oh, fantastic. Yes, it's just wonderful.
How are your postpartum periods? Let's go back and get back to you.
Ariel: So I find that. So when with all of my surrogate babies, I found that postpartum was actually a very good experience for me.
So this led me to a couple of conclusions. Okay. So I struggled with my daughter you know, I, I felt like I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't, I, I had support in the way that, like I had family, I could call if I needed something, I had a postpartum doula that can help again. I had the support, I still struggled.
You know, it's still hard, even when you have support. And I think that's the thing here. I think there's this facade that we're supposed to be so good at being, you know, just jumping right into taking care of an infant when you're not used to it. And it's an adjustment, it's a very big adjustment. And I think, you know, we don't consider that enough, but.
So I had very good postpartum periods after the three surrogate bursts that I had, the three babies I gave birth. And oh, you know what, what I was, I was, I, this reminded me of something that we were talking about earlier, but some controversy around me saying that I'm a four time surrogate, because some people didn't like that I considered the miscarriage that I had a a surrogacy. They were like, oh, well, it wasn't a baby.
And I was like, well, she was, and she had parents and they loved her and they wanted her and she died at 15 weeks, four days gestation. So, and some people it's still 15, 15 weeks, four days. Yeah. So I was just shy of four months pregnant. And you know, so I got some messages from people. I think when you have a big Instagram people forget that there's an actual human behind the screen.
And I'm very authentic with how I am on the internet.
Ariane: I feel it. It comes with vulnerability.
Ariel: So definitely. Yeah. Yeah, but some people were like, oh, well you're not a four time surrogate. You're a three time surrogate because you've only had three babies. And I was like, so now in my bio, I put four times surrogate. And then I show the little, the little heads showing that there is an angel. So people know. Right. I also think it helps make things relatable. I've been through it. I've I've had a DNC. I went through the recovery. It was not good. It was not easy. I did not like it, nothing about it was great. I was not treated well by the hospital staff.
Miscarriage was not handled super well in my opinion. So that's kind of part of the reason it led me to kind of do some of the work that I do now, but that was kind of like an aside to what we were talking about there, but back to like postpartum and stuff, good postpartum periods after surrogate babies.
And I will tell you why: after you have a surrogate, you are not caring for the baby. You get to go to your recovery room and you get to sleep for like 12 hours and then somebody brings you food and then you watch Netflix. And that's it. Okay?! It is, you know, it's amazing how something like sleep can just make us go crazy when we don't have it.
And you know, as much as even when you are a surrogate and you're going through a postpartum, of course, you're dealing with the hormones, you know, you're, you're still dealing with the hormone crash, which I did notice a bit. I will say that, like I got a little bit teary, but like not more so in a way that, like, I would see a really sad commercial, like, and I would just be like, oh my God, this peanut butter commercial is making me cry.
You know, it would be like that kind of thing. Or I would, I would hear a song on the radio and I'd be like, oh, I started crying. So it was more like that. It wasn't, I wasn't in distress by any means, just like kind of teary here and there, but all in all, I felt actually that I had a very good postpartum experience.
This last one specifically, I will say too, that two of my surrogate births were C-sections and one was actually a VBAC. So I've kind of had both of the experiences I've had, you know, the VBAC I've had an emergency C-section and then I had a, an unplanned, but calm C-section it wasn't like an emergency.
So I've kind of recovered from all different kinds of birth here. And some of the things that made the biggest difference was, you know, I wasn't taking care of the baby! Yeah, I was resting. I was taking care of myself. I was recovering from major surgery and really, it just, it, it made such a difference in my recovery that I could recover from birth because I think in our society just acts like women just because we are biologically able to do it, you know, and, and birth a baby, or have a baby doesn't mean that, you know, it's not traumatic to our bodies. And we're expected to just kind of go back and pretend like we're not still wearing diapers and bleeding everywhere and leaking milk everywhere.
Like we're just supposed to pretend like we just get back to normal. And this last pregnancy, I kind of tried to document my postpartum. You know, show people that like you don't bounce back right away. You're not a bouncy ball. Our purpose in life is not to have children and then pretend we didn't. And like, you know, act like it never happened and make our bodies look like there's no evidence of ever having children.
You know, I think it's okay to live in a season of postpartum for at least a year of your recovering and your taking care of yourself. And you're learning new things about yourself and new things about your baby. And the first little bit is hard. It's a lot easier if you're taking care of yourself and being able to recover.
So I think really so much of postpartum depression can come, yes, hormonally, but also situationally, right? We know that postpartum depression is made worse by lack of support by isolation, by not having people around you. And of course look where we are in the world in the pandemic, right. We're basically making it impossible and in sometimes illegal to gather with people and to get the support that you need.
And so it kind of just makes for again that perfect storm of situations. Right. But I think if there's anything I learned through my postpartum periods, it was that when we prioritize ourselves and rest and recovery, we can have a better time kind of being able to combat any of that other stuff that comes.
Right. But that's really difficult when, of course you're taking care of a baby and you might not have the same level of support and help that you would under normal circumstances or at all.
Ariane: Yeah. And it's also ingrained in our society and therefore in our brain because we, we, you know, internalized that, that babies come first.
Yeah. Like you as a surrogate, you, you give the baby to their parents. And so you're kind of, it's okay for you to recover. Like you're talking to me about that. I'm like, absolutely. Like, it makes so much sense. You just went through surgery like Netflix 40 days. And somehow our occidental society just didn't get the memo that this is not how it works.
That a lot of cultures have this at least 40 days or 30 days lying in. And just being off your feet, like you're not allowed to put your feet on the ground. And, and I'm just like, well, it's support, it's support. It's like your body is horizontal and supported. You're not allowed to support yourself.
Ariel: And the baby's taking care of it.
You're being fed. And you know, they're bringing the baby to you to, to, and this is cultural in so many other places beside this, besides this north American idea of, you know, bringing babies into the world. And, you know, I think this is where we get to that postpartum where like, people I think are trying, you know, when we're trying to educate people are coming forward and with all the work that you're doing, especially, right?
Like people want to tell their story. People want to be heard. They want people like lawmakers and government and medical professionals to know that postpartum is hard. We deserve more support. And the only way it's going to happen is if we keep speaking up. Unfortunately, we're so busy, not sleeping, then nobody thinks to, to be able to do anything about it.
I'm like, you know what? This is, this is my job. People want to tell their, story. And unfortunately, a lot of the world just doesn't want to listen. And I think they would much prefer this facade, that mothers and birthers aren't effected by things like high rates of birth trauma, lack of support post-birth, returning to work still bleeding, even not having maternity leave, not having the ability to take time off all of this adds up it's not sustainable. You know, these people are drowning and it's fatal.
Ariane: And it's. Like not only does, but it feels like we're it by doing so we, as new parents feel like we have to reinvent a wheel over and over again.
And the learning curve is so big as opposed to having a transmission of knowledge and support that is preventive as opposed to just being reactive. And of course we need psychiatrists to treat postpartum depression, but what do you think would have happened if you add had mental health check throughout your pregnancy?
What would have happened, if everywhere, we would tell people postpartum period is really hard. It's hard, no matter how fluffy and Unicorny you are, this will be a learning curve. This is not for the faint of heart. So let's just celebrate the strength that you will need. And also give you the support in order for you... you might need all of the support. You might need 1% of the support, but the support is there if you need. Yeah. There's just so much taboo around that. That it's just, yeah. As you say, you just keep speaking up and, you know.
Ariel: I didn't even think of going to therapy, right? Like how many, like, I think it's getting much better now. Like I think like people older than us, like, oh my God. Whereas now everyone's like, oh my God, my therapist said the best thing you know.
Ariane: My therapist is we're the generation, the, the therapy generation, which is because I don't know your parents. They were like, "what are you doing? You're like talking about your mom and your childhood issues?"
And I was like, yeah, yeah.
Ariel: And that's it. Right. It's like and, and I think too, as far as treatment for postpartum depression, you know, like I think another thing too here is that like postpartum depression affects a lot of people, you know, it's oh my gosh. I should actually know the exact statistic, which I don't.
I believe it's about 20 to 25%. I think it's around 25. Don't quote me people that develop postpartum, depression and symptoms and things like that. However, that is a diagnosed postpartum depression. I will tell you, I see women every day that are like, "I'm pretty sure I had postpartum depression years ago. And now that I'm having my second and third baby, it's all coming back and I'm realizing, oh my God, I had postpartum depression. And now I'm grieving the loss of the entire postpartum period for six months to a year that I missed out on because I didn't get help." And then we did...
Ariane: This is what motherhood or parenthood was supposed to be.
Ariel: So some general, like statistics about postpartum depression and anxiety. So in general, and these are Canadians statistics in general, about 20% of women with post postpartum depression consider like hurting themselves.
And this is that scary piece where a lot of women think, well, if I don't want to hurt my baby, I don't have postpartum depression. Only 20% of people with postpartum depression think of hurting themselves or their baby. And even if they think those things, a lot of times, they're those intrusive thoughts. It doesn't actually mean you want to hurt your baby.
And we know that there's a spectrum for baby. Yeah. And a lot of people are worried about postpartum psychosis, right? Postpartum psychosis is that classic what people think of when they think postpartum depression, which is someone going absolute crazy and you know, off the deep end. And this is dangerous because people think that that's the standard of what postpartum depression is when that is the absolute, highest end it will ever be.
And postpartum psychosis only affects about 0.1 to 0.2% of people who with postpartum depression.
Ariane: Yeah, it's fairly rare.
Ariel: It's really rare. Rare. Yes. And postpartum psychosis is a rapid onset. It's rapidly coming on where you are suddenly confused, disoriented, foggy. You're having hallucinations. You might be paranoid. You may want to self-harm, you know, and that's when you go to an emergency room right away. But the thing is when that's the standard, when the standard is, oh, I need to get help if I'm literally about to drive my car off the road, we're missing a whole bunch of people. Like the majority of people that you know, that's not, that's not how it is.
Right. So with postpartum depression, anxiety, The common, the most common symptoms are, you know, things like feeling sad all day, crying a lot. Now this can be somewhat normal in the first couple of weeks, but baby blues typically lasts only a couple of days, a couple of weeks, a couple of days to a couple of weeks.
And that's like, when you just feel extra teary, you know, I went through that too. It's just your hormones, but I'm talking postpartum depression after a few weeks post-birth we're talking, feeling sad. Most of the day crying a lot, feeling very fatigued and sluggish, foggy being irritable or snappy, angry. Even some people it's rage, yes, trouble sleeping. Like maybe, maybe you're exhausted and can't sleep, but you are convinced that if you close your eyes and don't watch your baby fall asleep, they're going to die of SIDS. Excessive worrying, overwhelming guilt, hopelessness, unworthiness, anxiety, panic attacks, thoughts of self-harm, thoughts of suicide...
these are all signs and symptoms of postpartum depression. It is not just, I want to hurt my baby and I don't think enough people are aware and know that all of these are signs. And as soon as you have any of them, you know, going to your doctor, finding a therapist, getting medication, getting support a lot of people are kind of apprehensive maybe to take antidepressant medications.
Just because I think there's a stigma still. And if people are breastfeeding, they might not want to, for the most part antidepressant medication is there are safe options in pregnancy and it's very well researched, well researched. And you know, it's the kind of thing like, is it ideal? No, but at the same time, Having panic attacks every single day is also not ideal or self harm or...
Ariane: Or death for that matter...Yeah.
Ariel: Yeah. And the thing with treatment for postpartum depression is a lot of it comes down to therapy. Therapy and medication, and on their own can both be helpful, but in conjunction with each other, that's when you get the highest success rates. And you know, like it's, this is a problem. It's a problem for women.
You know, in the UK, actually, this is interesting, in the UK, the leading cause of maternal death in the year following birth is suicide. Yes. The leading cause. Like that's a problem and we're not doing anything about it. And it infuriates me to be honest because it's just not taken seriously. And to be, to be perfectly honest, I think it has to do primarily with the fact that all the people making the rules don't have uteruses.
Ariane: I'm chuckling here. Yeah, because you know, it's true. We know, we know that we absolutely know that.
Ariel: Until we, until we share and until we educate and until we come forward and are like, Hey, this is something that needs to be done immediately because it is dangerous for families.
Ariane: Like, even if you don't want to talk about the mom or the women or the people who are marginalized because they have uterus and sorry, there's, there's a lot of lawnmowing outside my windows. It's a little bit of buzzing, but, okay. Okay. Do you want to talk just about the baby? Okay. If, if in order to make laws, you only need to talk about the babies. Well, babies grow up with ill parents. Baby grew up with very sick mom's baby grew up in a very, the effects of postpartum depression, postpartum anxiety, postpartum psychosis, or any perinatal mood disorders is insane on the development of a child.
So if you want to base your laws on that fine, but it's also affecting the families and the dear babies that you absolutely want to save. So do something like support and preventively put things in actions in order for people to be followed in pregnancy and up to a year after, because we know that postpartum depression or anxiety can be triggered.
Mine was triggered at month five. And you think, oh, I'm supposed to have bounce back mentally and physically by then. It's just not true when you say no, I don't know what I'm supposed to do with my day. This is, this is very real. Like, I don't know what I'm supposed to do with my day. I don't know what I'm supposed to do with myself.
And where is that magical? You know, mom juggling stuff in the minivan, which I became. To be honest, like, but this took me five years to be comfortable with that role of having all the backpacks, you know, like the stereotypes of the person with the backpack, the glitters everywhere and the minivan and crumbs everywhere.
And I'm embracing that now. I just didn't, it didn't grow overnight. You know, it didn't happen overnight. And that learning curve is really steep and hard. Yeah. And it sounds impossible like some days.
Ariel: Yeah. People often feel like if they don't have it all figured out, then they must not be a good parent because if I was a good parent, I would know what to do.
There's just normal. And it's just not it's normal, but we don't talk about it. Right. W we don't talk about what these experiences are like for ourselves A., because there's a stigma and B, I think we're always trying to show the best things of ourself. And I mean, I get it right. Obviously, you know, we put our best foot forward, but I also think there's something to be said for being vulnerable and sharing our stories.
And that's why I love I I love so much of what you're doing because it shows it shares, right. It's stories, it's real life. And I think until, until people start speaking up and sharing, it gives other people the opportunity to say, Hey, like, oh, that's me too. That's me too. And until we can kind of recognize ourselves in someone else's story, I think that's really when we can start to get help and like, you don't have to live like. You don't have to live dreading every day when you wake up and you're having anxiety before you even get out of bed in the morning. And the second year kid cries, you're thrown into a tailspin of panic. Yes.
Ariane: Yes. And then you add the breastfeeding or the chest feeding on top of it. Then you just want to get nipples are screaming too. And it's just, it's just awful.
Ariel: And that's just, that's not even including like, oh, hi, we're also in a pandemic. So you can't actually go to any mommy and me groups. There's no exercise groups you can go with. There's no childcare. You can't go and visit a friend. You can't even go visit your parents sometimes. I mean, things are better now, but I think of all the people that had babies in the last year. Not good. And then, and then on top of all of that, we haven't even touched on the fact that, you know, 20% of pregnancies end in miscarriages, and those are only the reported ones because that's Canada only considers it a miscarriage after a confirmed heartbeat.
So anybody who got to six weeks and didn't have a heartbeat their numbers don't really count in a lot of the statistics because they go off a confirmed pregnancy. So when we talk miscarriage rates, they're actually quite high. And so I find that in my work, I have a lot of clients that now have a baby and are suffering with postpartum depression.
And they're dealing with the loss of maybe a previous miscarriage and it's all coming up now and we forget each triggering. It's, it's a loss. And then, you know, Just that postpartum period and the lack of sleep. And, you know, we're not all mentally there, you know, because we only have so much capacity and babies take up a lot of that and it doesn't leave a lot for our emotional regulation and our distress tolerance and being able to handle stressful situations.
That's why we get snappy and irritable. And that's why people with postpartum depression, like struggle to kind of regulate and feel okay because it's, it's a lot and we're not meant to handle that much on our own. And so, you know, and then there's birth trauma. The number of women that experienced and perceived birth trauma too.
Right? Because someone could have a perfectly normal quote unquote delivery and still have a traumatizing birth, just like somebody could have a textbook, traumatizing birth and not be traumatized by it. And then we're also...
Ariane: The providers and how you are treated. And so then we, if we talk about hospital policies and how they treat postpartum and pregnant people and birthing people, that's a whole other infuriating topic.
Ariel: Tell me about it. Oh, it angers me if I'm being so honest, because I just it's like we know what to do to prevent a massive amount of people who give birth from developing a preventable and treatable diagnosis. And we're not doing anything about. Yeah, we're not mental health is rarely talked about in any prenatal care.
You know, I, I don't, I had a midwife I'm a very big advocate for midwifery care. I think they're much more inclusive. I think they're great. My midwife did give me information on postpartum depression and all kinds of stuff and pamphlets and everything. I have had an OB in the past. I don't think I got any of that.
I don't, I don't think I, you know.
Ariane: But they are trained in surgery. That's, what's kind of, and I did a whole article about a weight-based stigma and reproductive care. And sh I interviewed a doctor, an OB, and she was like, yeah, we, we are trained in surgery. We are not trained for like, this is why, as you say, midwifery is so important is that we need people who are able to do C-sections and have somewhat good bedside manners.
We absolutely considering that most pregnancies are low risk. We absolutely need people who will just sit in the corner while we labor. Like, and do not want one to push all these interventions. And we'll actually have our physical, mental, and emotional wellbeing at heart and not just the babies .
Ariel: My shifts and my shifts is ending, I need to deliver this baby.
Yes. I hear that. And I think, you know, like this is where I think an interdisciplinary model of care is so important and it just doesn't exist. Like in a perfect world, what we would be doing for people who get pregnant and give birth is, you know, they would have a team, they would have a doctor or a midwife.
They would have a mental health professional. They would have, you know, a physical therapist. Like why, why is it that, that women aren't offered? You know, you, you get a knee injury or you have knee surgery and you're in physio for 18 months. You get your abs torn apart in an emergency C-section and they send you home with Advil.
Ariane: Yeah. And they don't even tell you that it should be mandatory. This is absolutely insane. I didn't get PT until I had a hysterectomy. And there were like, and I didn't even have my, my, you know, it's a laparoscopy. So my, my muscles are fine. We're missing an organ. Your organs, like triple more than that size and yet, yeah. Again like, oh, you pee yourself. Ha ha. That's funny when you sneeze, it's not funny.
Ariel: And that's not normal and it's not funny.
Ariane: It's not a joke. Our body aren't a joke. So yeah, we need a lot of.
Ariel: If we took care of people, post-birth too right. It would be making sure people are fed well, making sure people have time to rest postpartum doulas, you know, having a night nurse like, like once in a while to come in because you need sleep and there's no shame in asking for help. Right. You know, I can, I think sometimes it can be really hard to ask for help. And then when we do ask for help, we feel guilty for it. And you know, I just, I, I don't like it. You know, I do a lot of the stuff that I don't even know how to an eloquent way to say that, but I don't like it. And I hate that primarily women and people who identify as women. I, I think it's very. It's just seen as normal that we just don't ask questions and we don't advocate for ourselves. And a lot of the work that I do in counseling with postpartum clients is, you know, working through the postpartum depression, but also setting people up for success in the future, right?
Because it's, how are we staying present? How are we managing our expectations? How are we doing things to help with the worry? Are we, are we advocating for ourselves? And our needs, are we setting boundaries with people around us? Are we setting boundaries with our family members and, you know, protecting our mental space?
Are we taking back some control of our life? Are we identifying supports? Are we working to you know, be more mindful of things and, and you know, have our time feel more our own, and this is dress tolerance. And I think this is primarily where my practice goes a lot of, so I use kind of a therapy technique called IPT and it's called interpersonal psychotherapy.
There's not a ton of research on it. And you know, it's a, it's a, it's a research based theory, but there's not, it's not as common as let's say, like CBT or something. Right? Like those very big types of therapy, but IPT really focuses a lot more on the relationship and the interconnectedness of our support system and how we're like, you know, relating to the world around us and, you know, it has much more of like a personal dynamic for postpartum depression. This is a very effective therapy technique because so much of postpartum depression is buffered. When we have support, having good support is a protective factor instead of a risk factor for postpartum depression. So having a counselor that you can talk to once a week, I see postpartum clients.
I have, I have. I have clients right now that I see that are pregnant, that are newly postpartum. I have people that see me after they've had a baby and I see them usually weekly, sometimes a little bit more for the first two weeks. And I'm like, you know what? This is for you here. You know, we meet once a week or, you know, maybe in the first, in the little bit when things are hard, I'm talking to those first few weeks when things are hard and you get an hour a week or two hours a week, depending where it's your time.
You get to sit here, you get to talk about yourself. You know, like we said, at the beginning, right. People want to tell their story and people like me are trained to listen. Yeah.
Ariane: Yeah. And we, we tend to believe to forget that we are not only interconnected, but interdependent. There is no such thing as a full blown nuclear individual, it just does not happen. We live in a society and it's funny being Canadian, I knew that when I moved to the U S and I see them like, I'm like, you guys are dumb. Like you don't understand your individuality bullshit. It means nothing. You are in interconnection with everybody and you are dependent on each other. So get that into your brain and stop with the fuckery because it's causing so much ill and it's it's. So that was probably my biggest cultural shock is that idea that we do not need each other. Somehow.
Ariel: The individualism is different and that's something that I think isn't represented in every type of culture.
Right. And I think we, humans thrive on connection. You know, we have so much research and, you know, there's research showing that people that have more lifelong connections throughout their life and meaningful relationships live up to 10 years longer than people who don't . Yeah, and we need it. And so why is it that we're taking these, these new parents and we're being like, okay, here's your, here's your spray bottle and some diapers see in six weeks on the phone for your birth control, have a nice life, good luck taking care of this baby you just met five minutes ago.
Ariane: And you feel like you've just been in a car crash. .
Ariel: Just basically I've seen that thing on Facebook or that meme where it's like giving birth is like, I'm getting in a car accident and, and someone else has also been in the car accident. And then they hand you that person and they say here's some Tylenol and a square bottle have fun.
Ariane: Good luck, good luck.
Ariel: It's like, why aren't we, you know, why aren't we doing better for these people? I don't get it. You know? And like, I think just in general, I think women's health and people who identify as women's health.
It's just lacking in general. I think if, when we have something that primarily doesn't affect men, it doesn't get treated the same way. You know? When men go to get a vasectomy, they get sent home with like narcotics. I had a, I had a C-section and I was sent home with two days worth of stronger pain meds two days.
And they left major abdominal surgery.
Ariane: If you think about breastfeeding, you may think about not using them. And you're like, okay, so I get the bottle and the shame and that bottle. Thanks.
Ariel: No, I thank you. That makes me feel really great. Yeah, and I think that's my job, right?
My job comes in where it's like to support people and to, I think just really normalize the process of being a new parent and that there's no right or wrong way to do postpartum. I think I repeat that if I had a catchphrase to my clients and any of my clients that are listening to this are probably gonna be like, yeah, she tells me that all the time.
There's no wrong way to do it!
You know, and it can change by the day. And if your kids cluster feeding one day and then they don't want to sleep through the night the next day. And then they stayed up past their bedtime that night and they slept on you that day. Okay. Yeah, that's good. That's okay. And this is where we manage our expectations right.
On what we thought it was going to mean to be a parent and what it's actually like. And that it's okay if it's different than what we thought it was. And we can work through it and make things better. And we can stay present in exactly where we are at that moment until we get to the next moment. And that's how we do it. Right? One step at a time, it's overwhelming to think of going through postpartum as a chunk because it's really hard. And so we stay present.
Ariane: And it sets you up for success afterwards. Right now in my family, if I'm being super honest, it's really hard. It's very, very hard. My three-year-old decided that 2:00 AM was a good time to come and visit. And then the five-year-old is like, oh, we have to sleep in the same bedroom. Let me come with you. Don't sleep. And then we're like, what should we do wrong? I thought we were done with this. And it's just not true. Like becoming a parent when you, I love when you say, going through it and chunk. You don't go through life and chunk. You don't go through parenthood and chunk. And, and to be honest, you gone, you just don't go through life as a whole in chunk and things will change. And there are seasons and postpartum just happened to be one of the most challenging one that changes every 30 seconds.
Ariel: And adapting to change too. Right. So when I see postpartum clients, I'm usually seeing them regularly. I think that is the best way to do it. Just because regularity and the consistency I think is helpful for postpartum parents, but so much of it, right, is that okay, it's okay. If this week is different than last week and next week is going to be different too.
How are you managing this week? And it's very in the moment, it is real time, real life counseling. So when I operate everything virtually, right. So I can see, I see people I'm all over the place, right. Because I do everything from my home office. So that's been kind of a blessing because the last thing a postpartum mom needs in inaccessibility right.
The last thing a postpartum person wants is to be lugging their newborn when they're depressed and can't get out of bed in the morning to an appointment with a newborn. It's awful. And crying triggers them. So now they're trying to get a kid in a car that doesn't like to be in a car and drive to an appointment it's just not accessible.
Right. So, you know, my clients come in their pajamas in our messy buns and oftentimes I get to see their little babies on the screen and I'm there, I'm present and I'm listening and I'm helping come up with concrete strategies. Right. And I think this is where a lot of like, because I was a career nanny for a while, because a lot of my first degree is in childhood developmental theories.
I kind of have a really good background on childhood developmental things as well. So working with parents about, Hey, this strategy might work. Let's try this, let's do this. It is real time counseling. Yes. You know, I have a, I might have somebody come in they're like, this is happening. This is happening. I need help.
And then we sit there for an hour and we come up with strategies and we, you know, we work through it in real time until next week. And the next week probably things change. Right. And I think this is great because I, when I see clients for a couple of weeks or a couple of months, even, you know, we can see the progress and it's where I can pull out because sometimes it feels hopeless.
Sometimes it feels like you're not getting anywhere and you're stuck in the mundane. And to have someone be like, Hey, you know what. Three weeks ago, you actually said this in a session and now you're, you're, you're completely changed on that topic. And how does it feel? Or, you know, you told me two weeks ago that you can never get through it and here you are, you bought through it.
How did you do that? And I just, I think there is just so much work that we can do to make. It's so much better for people that have babies. And I think it's a massive group of people that has been forgotten about that has been swept under the rug that has been put on the back burner for everything. And, you know, there is some really great like organizations that are helping kind of pave the way for this type of stuff.
And to make things more accessible, like one is the Canadian perinatal mental health collaboration, or call it collaboratives rather. And they're doing whole bunch of advocacy in government. You can, you can go to their website and with like two clicks, write a letter to your MP about better perinatal mental health care.
It tells you how like which parties are supporting it. They are huge and advocacy for this. There's a couple of other organizations that are kind of working on more of the fertility. Fertility matters is another one. That's doing a lot of advocacy around fertility and that stuff. Yeah. Yeah. And so there's just, there's, there's stuff out there, but we have to speak up and we're not going to get anywhere unless we talk about it.
Ariane: And we are. And we are, we were for like more than an hour. Thank you so much for that. It was informative and inspiring, and I feel so much less alone as an advocate that it makes me and fellow Canadian. It makes me so happy to have met you.
Ariel: Yeah, me too. Me too. I'm so happy. We got the chance to kind of talk about all of this and bring to light things that can help a lot of people.
And I think the takeaway from this is that you're not alone. And that there is a massive group of people going through exactly the same thing and that postpartum depression and anxiety does not discriminate. It does not care if you have a supportive partner or you're a single parent, it doesn't care if you have dual income household or if you're in poverty, it does not matter.
And I think everybody should have access to accessible mental health care. I think you know, if you're struggling reach out and, you know, be safe, this is safety. And you know, anyone who has a mental health background is never going to judge a client ever for coming forward. You know, that's the most important step.
And I think I commend anybody who says, you know what, I'm ready to not feel this way anymore. And I'm going to get help.
Ariane: Yeah. It takes a lot of courage. It takes a lot of courage to do that. And, and, and if we can't offer a little bit of love and a little bit of hope to people to gather that courage and reach out, we'll have done our little job on to this earth.
Ariel: Yep. Thank you so much.
Ariane: Thank you. Thank you so much.
Ariel: Nice to meet you. We'll do this again sometime. I'm sure. So.
Ariane: I have this, this, this hunch. Yeah. Thank you.
Ariel: All right. Thank you. Bye.