S02 E03 - Joy Spencer - Executive Director of Equity Before Birth - On Saving the Lives of Black Parents and Infants, Eliminating Disparities, and Equity for All
Faces of Postpartum—The Podcast is a show about the postpartum period and its multiple variations, hosted by Ariane Audet.
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S02E03
Joy Spencer — Executive Director of Equity Before Birth
In this episode, our founder, Ariane Audet, and Joy Spencer, Executive Director of Equity Before birth and single mom of the almighty Lily talk about eliminating disparities in maternal health outcomes, saving the lives of Black parents and infants, and what it means to reach equality for all.
They discuss Joy’s work at the North Carolina-based organization, how she pulled herself out of poverty and precarity, and her wishes to live and thrive in a world of abundance, joy, and untold stories to sing.
Show Notes
Equity Before Birth official website.
Black Maternal Health Caucus official website.
How to help Joy’s organization Equity Before Birth.
Full Transcript
Ariane: Hello! How are you?
Joy Spencer: I'm doing all right today. I'm doing all right.
Ariane: Well, that's good. As we mentioned before we started, being okay is a good place to be nowadays, despite the state of the world. So Joy, you are the executive director of Equity Before Birth, which is an organization providing financial support and holistic care for Black birthing people in the Triangle area. And I'm going to read the mission statement from your website, which is to save the lives of Black birthing people and their infants and improve health outcomes by increasing access to critical services and support.
Which is basically saying that you carry the weight of the world on your shoulder! I are you sure your okay?!
Joy Spencer: Not quite sure that I'm okay. We do a lot, but we do have a very grandiose mission but we are aiming to increase access to critical services and support that we know will improve birth outcomes and improve maternal health experiences and eliminate the disparities that we see in our maternal healthcare system.
Ariane: Which now we cannot play ostrich anymore. It's well-documented, it's everywhere in the news. So if we don't address it, it's basically just because we don't want to. Which is a massive issue. In the US in particular, but also, , everywhere else.
If you, if you'd like, we're going to start with your story because you actually have a very interesting and powerful, personal upbringing to motherhood, I would say.
So digging a little on the website, but also other places— internet is fantastic for that. I just feel, I know everything about everyone's life, which is a little creepy when I started doing these interviews. So you are a mom of a, so this, this information was gathered in April, 2021. So it was a two year old is it's a daughter, right?
Joy Spencer: Yeah. She just turned three end of June.
Ariane: Oh, and what is her name?
Joy Spencer: Lily.
Ariane: This is gorgeous. And you had a high-risk pregnancy from what I've read. And can you tell me, like, let's start there. Can you tell me, in one word, how you would describe your postpartum experience?
Joy Spencer: Hmm, one word would be: confusing. So I had PCLs, which is polycystic ovary syndrome. So lots of cysts on my ovaries, lots of fibroid issues and was told that I was infertile and that if I needed some medical intervention, there were things that I could do to try to boost fertility.
And of course there are lots of options that you can take to have, or rear children: adaption, surrogates on and so forth. But those were the options that I was given. So of course becoming pregnant was a complete and total surprise to not only myself, but my doctor. In fact, I was really, really sick, and the first time I went to see a doctor, I was not given a pregnancy test. I went back to the doctor with the same symptoms a month later, and my doctor was actually on vacation and the nurse practitioner gives me a pregnancy test to, quote unquote, rule out.
Ariane: Usually they do it like systematically and this time around somehow you fell in the crack, right.
Joy Spencer: Because, according to my, my chart, I was in federal and what was not able to conceive I'm guessing is what my doctor leaned on. But anyway, so you fast forward and I have my baby girl Saturday afternoon, and by Monday lunchtime, 11, like before lunch, I'm sitting at home holding a baby and unfortunate for me, same day. I get told that my partner, that I thought I was going to co-parent with, was moving out of state. That was a surprise. And then my mom was like, I really wish I could be here, but I have to go to work. And sitting there with a newborn, like, wait, I have to have this baby with me forever! What do I do? What is going on? I thought I read the book. I thought I watched the video. It was a really, really weird. It was a confusing feeling like for me, they tell you you're not supposed to go out with the baby for four to six weeks because they're so susceptible to germs and disease. But I'm like I have to go to the go straight out because to the laundry mat, like they don't tell you that part, like where's the support system.
It was a really confusing time of like trying to balance what I'm told is the right thing to do and then what my reality and my capacity and my resources were.
Ariane: So when you say what I was told, are you talking just about the books about social expectations? About, because we, we all come from different backgrounds and everything, and I hear what you're saying.
What I'm hearing is, the basic needs resource like food, groceries, healing physically, you couldn't even meet these because you were on your own basically. This is rough. You say confusing, and I feel it's almost numb. It's like, holy moly. What's happening to me?
Joy Spencer: Yeah. And it was, yeah, it was a lot. Like you said, we have these societal norms in society, kind of like hints that are kind of like suggest what a good parent would be. So, you keep your newborn baby in the house, you protect them from germs and outsiders, you eat healthy foods so that you can, breastfeed appropriately and you, keep everything clean and sanitized and you taken out when the baby takes a nap, like all these!
Ariane: That advice needs to burn.
Joy Spencer: You don't constantly, but you don't, you never fall asleep on the couch with the baby. You never do this.
And you, and then you try to live up to these expectations, especially when you don't have a really comprehensive support system, even if you do have a partner, a newborn is alive: you need like essentially an entire care team. And when you don't have that, it's really, really, really hard. And then you add financial stress onto that. And other things like transportation stress on top of that. And it compounds and it can make for a really, really difficult period of time.
Ariane: Was it difficult for you?
Joy Spencer: It was extremely difficult for me, unfortunately. I was experiencing unemployment and potential housing insecurity. I did not have transportation. I did not have income. I did not have a close by physical support system. And I probably, to this day, it's hard for me to still articulate how I made it out of that time period. Nothing short of, I guess, miraculous, but I did. And it, everyone does. We all make it through, right. It just seems like in the moment it seems impossible.
Ariane: And reading a little bit about your story. There was a lot of obstacles. Like a lot. And yet you persisted. My number two question is always, did you feel supported and what could have been done differently.
And I feel almost bad asking this questions, but I think it's important because I think now it ties to the work you're doing right now, which is like advocating for affordable care and basic support after you have a child.
And so I'm curious to hear what you have to say about support personally, but also lack of support on a federal level too, that could have been incredibly helpful to you because you obviously are like a, a human who is very perseverant. Is it a word in English? You persevere and despite all these obstacles that, you could have just given up, and people would have been like, "Yeah, that's a lot!" And, and you didn't.
And so not only I would like to hear, like how you say, I don't know how I made it, but how did you make it? And also was there any support and if there wasn't, what could have helped?
Joy Spencer: Hmm, how I made it. Music is it's there for me. I love music. I had a playlist it's still saved in my phone now as the mommy and me playlist.
And me and baby girl listened to them songs all day, every day. Uplifting songs back to back. She still no. And remember some of the songs. And we still sing them together. She, she can sing with me now. And when I, and, and, and so like pregnancy and, and being a new mom, and even, especially if there are any sort of complications with either yourself or your baby, it feels so isolating.
And it feels like you're alone. And like, nobody will understand. And I allowed myself to feel that and to isolate myself. But when I started to reach out for support or started to tell people what was going on, I got a lot of, oh, me too. Or, oh, this happened to my mom, to my sister too. And people were able to support me in ways that not even sometimes I knew I needed people were able to offer advice that was actually really, really helpful because they had the experience of navigating my same exact situation.
And so it's hard for me to ask for support. Sometimes I love to help people and it's hard for me to sometimes reach back and get that in return. But asking for help was, was my you mentor or just let folks know what was going on.
So I think if I would've done more of that early on things would've been totally different. So again, I encourage folks, like no matter how isolated you feel, you are not alone. There are billions of people on the planet for a reason, like experiences repeat themselves. You are not alone. So reach out for help.
There's someone who can likely help you navigate whatever situation it is. I really wish we would streamline services and break silos and coordinate a lot better, collaborate a lot better. It was very hard to either be pregnant or have a newborn and have to go to four different offices in a day to get food's tickets a different office to get WIC support in a whole different office, to get the postpartum checkup, a whole different office, to consider child support or workforce and it's a whole nother office that, that that's hard. It's especially if you have a newborn and no transportation, that's kind of impossible.
All the paperwork that you're required you could sit and wait for your appointment and not have like one measly sheet of paper and they won't take you. The hoops and the loops were, where were ridiculous.
There's a lot of catch 22. I couldn't get a daycare voucher because I didn't have a job, but I couldn't get a job because I didn't have the childcare to go to an interview. I couldn't get rental assistance because I didn't have a job, but if I had a job, maybe I wouldn't be so behind on my rent. I wasn't eligible for certain programs. It was, it was, it was a lot.
So cutting the bureaucracy streamlining, collaborating, letting healthcare needs to be free, but talk to folks that tell the same story to the doctor, then tell the same story in the week opposite office. Same story when I'm trying to get food stamps and tell the same story. In the end, when you... I broke my foot when I was seven months pregnant, I had written it down anywhere. For example, when I had to go see the podiatrist, a foot specialist, they prescribed me a medication that when I went to my pharmacy, my pharmacist said, ma'am, are you pregnant? Yes. Like they are not supposed to give you this.
And it was just like, why would the first specialist not, one visibly see it, but to look through the rest of my, my health charts to see what was going on, what my condition was and that it was high risk indeed, that I probably didn't need to add any additional medication to the mix I was already on nausea medication and things that make sure I wouldn't be dehydrated.
But anyway, breaking the silos of the system will be really, really, really important. It is exhausting to have to go through all of those different avenues to get a basic service that's all interconnected anyway.
Ariane: Yeah. And it almost feels like they don't want you to get out of there. They don't want you to get out of, housing precarity or poverty or. It's not built to be helpful, unfortunately.
Joy Spencer: Yeah, as if I remember just trying to get help and you just kind of have to be at rock bottom to even... if you are trying to prevent your lights from getting cut off, you have to have, like, for example, a disconnection notice to, gain assistance with your utilities.
Well, I'm trying to avoid disconnection, but I have to be in a freak out mode. Like my lights are going to be cut off on Friday before, before you offer me support. So, yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's weird. And like I said, everything has a waiting list. Couldn't get health insurance because that's 45 to 60 day. Medicaid application processing time. And then we looked at the gaps in care, especially for women of color and their inability to access care in the first trimester. And we are literally through policy and process and procedure preventing women from receiving that care.
I remember going to try to get care and could not afford the $20 copay. And my application was still processing. And so it's like, what do I do? And I literally had like a mental breakdowns. I had an attack in the office and was crying and hyper ventilating. Like I am sick. I need someone to see me. I am pregnant. I do not know what to do. I need to know what to do. I can not hold down food. I cannot hold down water. I cannot afford to go to the doctor, but I am not leaving until someone lets me know that at least I'm not dying.
Ariane: So basically you don't advocate for your life, they will let you die.
Joy Spencer: It's too much, too much.
You have to fight way too hard for basic consideration. And it's too much. And for the United States to be the most resourced healthcare system in the world, there is no reason or excuse for us to not allocate resources in an appropriate way to make sure that care is assessable. And that experiences are pleasurable when receiving that care.
Ariane: I liked that you used the word pleasurable. That we're not just advocating for basic human needs. We're also advocating for comfort and care and support and being listened to.
Joy Spencer: Yeah.
Ariane: Yeah. In, in the most celebratory form of it, not just in the form of survival, but in a forum of living and it's sad infuriating enraging that you had to go through that because you say my postpartum period was confusing, and your pregnancy and , everything that came before and after for personal reason, but then you add this whole layer of social conundrum or, all this political things that has nothing to do with you and your child, and it's just, it's so heavy and so difficult, and so life-threatening. And, and it's absolutely awful. It's just awful. And I'm really sorry you had to, to go through that.
There's a clear shift between socioeconomic status and your relationship that you're going to develop with your children and with your child.
And if you add a layer of stress that has nothing to do with that, then how are you supposed to, as you said, like all these things that you're supposed to do, bond and, and, and breastfeed and all these, these nice things that are supposed to be happening when you're in a state of survival.
When did you feel like you might be able to make it. Meaning, like not just survive and always move, drive or be transported to one office to another, but to be like, okay, maybe I have a chance at living?
Joy Spencer: To be a hundred percent honest I am still convincing myself. The thing about it is that, I'm climbing out of poverty and climbing out of all of these adverse experiences and, and Situations, and I'm blessed, and I am fortunate to have these opportunities for upward mobility. But I am still very much entrenched in an ebb and flow lifestyle where I'm like one family emergency away from not being able to make ends meet again. One missed paycheck. missed invoice, missed whatever away from instability. Complete instability.
And then it takes a, a mental model shift to I'm shifting into a mentality of abundance and resourcefulness and of, of bountiful. Just access. And so yes, I am still actively convincing myself that everything is okay and will continue to be okay.
Ariane: Yeah. Enjoy and rest.
On April 21st, 2021, you addressed Congress, if I'm not mistaken. In a testimony before the House Ways and Means Committee, at the mom rising or an organization, through them.
Joy Spencer: So Mom's rising, I advocate on behalf of a lot of the policy issues and platforms that they uplift. But I have been involved as a parent advocate for that organization for a little while now.
Ariane: And you advocate for paid leave and affordable childcare, which could have been lifesaving. And in your address, you talk about the failure of the U S to invest in taking care of families, specifically Black families. And also we all know that a lot of the burden falls on to the mother's shoulders In these instances you say these are structural problems that require federal solutions. And this is not somehow as a Canadian I understand it a little bit more, although this is not perfect in Canada, let me be clear. But I remember moving to the U S and this whole idea that individuals should basically take care of themselves and not federal government kind of blows my mind. And it's horrifying because between does the lack of affordable childcare and no universal healthcare. These are things that just could be put in place and aren't.
Are you specifically now a day when we feel that some sort of paid parental leave or affordable childcare might pass. Do you think it's something that will happen?
Joy Spencer: I'm hopeful. I'm hopeful that we will see some changes to some degree. Will we arrive at, for equitable, affirming universal childcare and paid leave programs? I don't think so. I think we have more work to do. But I do think that people are starting to see the importance, unfortunately we have to do way too much legwork here to like prove humanity. But, but they have funneled resources into research that is going to prove what we have been saying all along, which is for example, 12 weeks of paid maternity leave, we'll save on average 600 infant lives per year.
That's 600 family trees that get complete total new extensions and routes. 600 opportunities to build legacy and wealth and 600 starting spaces to enter into a workforce or entrepreneurship or even building completely new and innovative corporation types or business interventions.
So that's a huge potential. We also know that if we close the resource gap, that's including gaps in wages, gaps in food gaps in housing, our economy will be boosted with an extra $2.6 billion dollars. And implications in the trillions. And so. It very much is I understand personal responsibility. I understand personal accountability. I understand working hard. I've worked since I was 12 years. So not to take away from that, but there are a lot of barriers and systemic issues that we did not create as individuals. And so that accountability has to go both ways and the federal government as they throw accountability back in the private sector should also assume responsibility and accountability as well.
Ariane: Yeah. Yeah. And as you said, as individuals, we didn't create that. And especially as Black individuals, let's be very clear on this, this, where their wealth or, white people's wealth has come from in the U S I love the fact that because somehow looking for your organization, I, I typed another "equity" and I found out that a lot of maternal and Black advocacy organizations have the word "equity."
And I know what that means, but can you expand a little bit more on why the word "equity" is so fundamental in, in an organization dedicated to helping Black birthing pregnant and postpartum?
Joy Spencer: Yeah. So equity takes into account some of these systemic barriers and root causes that exist in persist and have and were put in place hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years ago before any of us ever thought of right.
And that's what we are having to do if we want to really improve systems and really change the way things are done, we have to dismantle the harmful foundations and really start to rebuild and recreate. So we are familiar with diversity and we are familiar with maybe inclusion. We are familiar with equality and what that means, those are very kind of surface level terms.
And so on the outside, everything looks well. We are giving everyone the same kind of words and the same things in the same treatments. But what we do with equity is we're taking that a step deeper and saying, Hey, what is the actual need? Can we actually talk to people about what is needed to actually level the playing field?
I know there's a popular image out, but you have a person that's five foot tall, four foot tall, six feet tall, and you give everyone a one foot block to see over a six foot tall fence. The four foot person with that one foot block is still not going to be able to see over the six foot fence. They're still only five feet tall with that equal support that you gave them.
So we need to give the person that is four feet tall, at least two feet of support. It's two and a half to three feet of support and move a little closer would be equity. Right? So you completely couldn't see, and we're going to make sure that because you haven't seen this game in the last 400 games, we're going to put you in the front seat so you can capture the whole experience.
So now you get front seat tickets, for free, and you can not only get to capture that experience and absorb that experience. You get to do that front and center.
Ariane: Which doesn't strip anything from the person who's six and already see the game and attend the game and is also on the front row. This is what people don't understand, which kind of, and now it's fun to talk about it in terms of basketball game, but that'd be nice for people to understand that we're talking about, just humanity we're talking about, , living and living among your your species. Like what, what are we talking about here? Like why, why is it so difficult to, to understand? And this is, this is just, we know the answers to these questions, but it's incredibly violent, I imagine to go through, through life being like, you're not worth a seat at this game, which is life.
Joy Spencer: We, we, we have all the research and knowledge in the world. We know the implications of like trauma and how traumatic affects that affects our perception and our brain. And we know what bullying does, and we know what exclusion does, and we know what disengagement does and not having access does. But for some reason, when it comes to applying that to race and making sure we are diverse and having culturally affirming, efforts and measures and programming people catch amnesia around, well, what it means when, what we are asking for, we are, asking to see the traumatic experiences around our existence. And we're asking that all of the research that you tell us around how maltreatment affects us, we're asking for you to apply that and, help us live.
We are resilient, but in, in a fight or flight world, we are tired of being in, in fight, fight, fight, or flight flight flight mode, 24/7.
Ariane: Yeah. Or numbness as we were talking in the beginning, like it's just become so overwhelming that you just become numb. My next question was what does not just survive, but thrive means to you personally, but also when we talk about specifically about Black birthing and postpartum parent and in the US with the not just survive, but thrive.
Joy Spencer: To me it means dignity and honor. We will not continue to settle and only have access to bare minimum. We deserve happiness. We deserve to be overjoyed and elated around our experiences into in journeys into, into parenthood.
So, so, , yes, I can sit down and eat, a bowl of rice every day and I'm fed. But my ability to dream up my ideal dish, if I want Curry chicken to go with my rice, I should have that right. And that's thriving. Right. And then to have the resources to go and to get, and then to have the skills to, to cook it. Right. And then to have the support system to break the meal and share the meal with that is, is thriving. And all too often, we, we get it confused. So as humans, we cannot raise ourselves. We need support. That is how our species operates, but we sometimes get confused into thinking that because we may be in a period of our life where we need support that we don't deserve, deserve autonomy over decisions that we make when it comes to receiving that support.
So you get the debates over what people should and should not purchased with their food stamp card or what people should... we need to remember that everyone needs support at some point. Just because you may be able to call a family member and get a $2,000 deposit when you need support versus me having to sit and social services, to get a card with $200 that I can buy food with.
Doesn't mean that, fundamentally, me needing support was, was any different. And we have to stop being so, so judgmental about that and allow folks opportunity to thrive no matter what financial condition they may be in at the moment.
Ariane: What's interesting, and I don't want to say it's difficult, but when I do these interviews, I want them to be as much about your cause as it is about you as an individual, as an individual you talk about Curry chicken, but.
What would that mean? If you say, I still catch myself thinking things are going to be okay. Things are going to be, you have a small, let's not forget that you are a single mom of a toddler, which, man they're exhausting. And so what does that mean for you to thrive? Not necessarily just as a Black mom, but you personally as an individual who I believe post-partum is forever.
I believed bringing a child into a world into the world. Just transforms you in the best and most challenging ways. Yeah. What would be thriving for you as a mother, but also as a woman, but individually?
Joy Spencer: Mm. So what enables me to thrive is people listening to me into what I have to say. When I say I need support, I need a certain thing or no, this needs to be changed. This is not a pleasurable experience. No, this is the resource I need for my child or myself. That it helps me to, to thrive in and not having to fight for basic things when there are resources available and not having to prove my humanity, to be able to have access to that, to that resource.
And then access, access, access access is, is huge. If, like I live we call it the triangle area, but it's Durham, Orange and Wake counties. We have dozens of colleges in the area, dozens of research, institutions and corporations. But if I do not have internet access, I can't fill out the application to get to that school.
I can't pay for it. I can't get to class. I don't have the childcare to attend class. I don't, , if I don't have access to any of these things. I am not going to be able to thrive. I'm not going to be able to further my education or I'm not going to be able to get the highest, most organic quality foods.
If I can't get there, if I can't afford it, I'm not going to be able to. If I can't access the gym, can I be my best self and be healthy? If my neighborhood doesn't have the sidewalks and the Trailways and the Greenways. What was the air quality looking like here? What's, it's, it's an access thing.
So for me what's huge is opportunity.
Give folks the opportunity, letting me pursue the opportunity, giving me a seat at the table so that when people are making decisions, I can insert my lived experience and help to inform those decisions. Oftentimes people have good intent. But without certain perspectives, the impact may not be as good because you're making decisions for people of which you really have have no no real knowledge of, you've not walked in their shoes.
And so you're kind of making blind decisions. So helping me thrive about trusting me, trusting my expertise, trusting my experience, letting me at the table, giving me opportunity to obtain the resources that I need to take care of myself and my family. Knowing how high cost of living is knowing how high childcare is allow me opportunity for, for , to generate income, to generate wealth, give folks access to that information for ownership, for land accumulation how help us get at those tables and get to those options.
There are so many resources available that I never knew about and so until I started being, having the privilege to, to be in certain spaces. So give folks access to these spaces so that we can get in these information loops and change the trajectory of our lives.
Ariane: And do you think this is what be becoming to the executive director of equity before birth kind of did for you?
Joy Spencer: Absolutely. Advocating on behalf of like community and moms and Black moms and, and public health is something that I do, , all day, every day and in my sleep anyways. But to gain the opportunity to do what you love and to get paid, to do what you love and to help other folks to do something that is fulfilling.
And not only that, to give back, to be able to give more folks opportunity to work in that kind of field in that sector, or more folks the opportunity to actually like change things, speak with elected officials. Since that The hearing with the ways and means committee the conversation around paid leave and checker has not stopped.
That is amazing. Letting people see the power of their voice and giving folks the opportunity to do what they love is a game changer. We know how intrinsically mental health is linked with, with physical health. And so it's really hard to maintain positive health in any regard, if you are miserable and don't have basic resources to, to meet your needs. And so coupling a passion point with a resource point is like bliss, utopia, world.
Ariane: I love listening to you talk. It's just so amazing. Can you tell me. What you do on a daily basis at equity before birth. there is a couple of things. I've, I've encountered a lot of nonprofit organizations and when I saw what you actually did, I was like, yeah, that's simple: give them the money. Like, it's just like, stop, stop trying to do. Sometimes it becomes more about the organization that it becomes about the people they serve. And when I read about your mission, I was like, yeah, that's, that's fantastic. So can you walk me through what you actually do there?
Joy Spencer: Yeah. So equity before birth, what we're doing is fusing economic justice with birth justice. So we are improving birth outcomes by eliminating financial barriers. We're doing that in three main ways: if you do not have full paid maternity leave benefits, we want to supplement your income to keep your income level as consistent as possible while you are recovering from your birth event. Secondly, we give direct cash assistance for essential baby needs that your baby will need to optimize development such as like crib or car seat, stroller, diapers, formula, why things that all babies will need. We don't want that to be a stress if you can't afford those. And then lastly, We are covering the cost of perinatal healthcare support or education services. So if you come out with your birth plan and you want a breastfeeding class or a childbirth education class, or a doula or a lactation consultant, or maybe a pelvic health specialist to help you prepare for labor, and those things are outside of your budget, but that's what you really need to optimize your experience, we will cover the costs for that. And if it is if, and when it is a specific perinatal healthcare or education service, where we will pair our families with a Black or brown birth worker that reflects their values and, and cultural norms through our direct service partners.
But we also partner with anyone in the community who's looking to see families thrive. So folks who give free produce boxes, free books, free nurse home visits free diapers free. We're partnering with folks who do furniture and we're just exploring all sorts of, of partnerships so that we can connect you with someone, at some point regardless of whether you meet our, , more strict eligibility criteria or not. We are working to break those silos I mentioned and come up with a way for everyone to collaborate. Hey, this one family needs, this we'll have resources. So how can we come together to, to make sure they get that?
What my day looks like day to day, it's important to know that the idea of this org was, was thought of by the founders on August, 2020. I came on as first executive director, October 1st, 2020. So I'll be celebrating my first year as ED in just a couple of weeks. So I have been one woman's show with a team of small, but very mighty volunteers helping me run this. So what, what my day looks like is it's checking emails and going to meetings and, and checking texts simultaneously about diapers and needs for formula and needs for supplemental pay leave. And, oh, Miss Joy here is a picture of the twins and, oh my goodness I'm getting induced Friday and oh, I just had the baby and my water broke at work. And Ms. Joy, I know you say you're not a nurse, but what are these little red bumps on my baby's neck? I know you can't give medical advice, but should I freak out now or later?
And that, that, that is what my day consists of and parents reaching out to thank me so much and saying that they've reached goals and how can I give back and how can I help and where can we donate it? Can I send my cousin to you and! But happy to say we have hired four new team members that will start October 4th, 2021.
So one year later we have been awarded $300,000 in grants raised over $250,000 in individual donations and hired four staff members. So we have received tremendous and incredible support.
And I just is serendipitous. I couldn't be... my heart is so full. ,
Ariane: You were talking about abundance at the beginning. How you want to believe that what is happening to you, is, is for real and, and will lead to this. And what I see through my screen, this by COVID, is someone who is overflowing with gratitude and joy and beauty and, and, and it's pretty. It's pretty powerful to, to watch that unfold. And, and, and I'm very, I'm sorry, moved this to see you how like exuberant you are with joy and then I realize your name is also Joy. So maybe you were destined to do that kind of work.
Joy Spencer: It's a blessing. Like I can't explain it.
Ariane: This is pretty it's pretty amazing to see. And you, your organization and yourself this, I mean, not that we know each other, we met an hour ago, but I have the feeling that you absolutely Jesus deserve all, all that's coming for you. And also what happened to you?
I have a question. North Carolina seems to be the heart of a lot of initiatives when it comes to perinatal care that I haven't seen really anywhere else in the country. And maybe it's because I'm, I'm mostly like started talking to people there, but I just, or it's because it's my ties with UNC, but there is a lot happening and why do you think that is like? Do you feel it as just in my head? Or there's a big community that is growing what is going on in our current area?
Joy Spencer: I feel it, I feel it. I would first I just want to give shout outs to California. I think California is one of the most progressive states that we have that is really like taking maternal health seriously and interventions and really like, like looking into it.
So North Carolina has the 15th highest premature birth rate and premature birth is the number one cause of infant death. We also have one of the worst maternal death rates and pregnancy related deaths are 60% of those are preventable. And so we have a lot of work to do. Number one. Number two, we are fortunate to have diversified our legislature and we have a lot more women and more women of color and more Black women specifically.
It, that leads some of our larger districts that are making a lot more noise around the issue. Federally the Black maternal caucus really helped to amplify that. And vice president Kamala Harris was one of the founding members of the Black maternal health caucus. And so 100%, she absolutely has to be behind the scenes doing her magic, whispering, saying, Hey, we need to support maternal health and Black maternal health efforts.
She hosted the first ever kind of like federal town hall for Black maternal health awareness week and she selected us equity before birth, as one as a charity partner for Biden's inauguration 100 charity partner organizations that the Biden administration has. And we are one of them and I am wholeheartedly convinced that vice-president, and Madame vice-president, it probably was like, Hey, we have to support them a maternal health organization. I, I, I don't know how we were selected, but they received donations and split it across all 100 charity partners. And we got like, an authentic flag that was present at the inauguration and things of that nature.
So I just think more people are listening. I think more people who are proximate to the issue are speaking up and being in positions of power and decision decision-making. And then we know we're we're we're busting, miss. All right. This is not a low income problem. This is not a, you are overweight or you are not healthy problem.
This is a systemic problem. I experienced a hard pregnancy at the same rate as Beyonce what or Serena Williams, or Duchess! One in four pregnancies end and loss and very sad and, but applaud her bravery for speaking up. Because too many people think that they are alone and they're not.
So, so I think it's, I think the stars are aligned. I think people in power, full positions are more proximity to the issue. I think more people are listening. I think awareness has increased. I think a lot of people didn't know. I think moms have stopped being silent there's this whole mommy clubs thing.
That's kind of attention was trauma. That we are being more vocal about. And I think continuing to do that is gonna shed more light and that brings more visibility, more resources and more ability to do the work and adjust the problem.
Ariane: What does your future and Lily's future look like today after we spoke?
Joy Spencer: It is so bright. Let me first say that my baby girl is like, she's been here before, she loves to sing. She loves to dance. I think she may be an actress of sorts, some sort of gymnast. I don't know why she likes to climb as high as she can to see how far she can jump off.
She is way more adventurous than me is that he gets the best of me and her future is blinding. I am just here to nurture that, not to stifle her and not to stifle her expression. And just to see where that goes. I learn way more from her than I think I can ever teach her. I often feel I don't deserve her. And she's pretty awesome. Like y'all, we'll probably see her somewhere. I don't know. She's just like, really full of personality.
I, for my future also see ,brightness as well. I am just stoked that I am getting paid to do what I love, and I want to open that door for so many more people. It's totally possible.
And, and I want to this economic liberation thing, I want to really ride this wave and really like change what it means to like place value on people with lived experience. In a capitalist society that should mean money. And I really want to become financially literate. And I really want to accumulate well for, for, for my daughter, become a home owner, become a land owner, do all the things and, we kind of demonize money, , it's the root of all evil and all of that.
But it's okay to accumulate material resources and be secure and comfortable with the way you live. And so I'm, I'm going to start to embrace that. And like you said, just, just live and embrace abundance. Yeah. Happiness, happiness, happiness, the root of it all. Don't matter what you have if you're not happy.
Yeah.
Ariane: Yeah. That's where the, the capitalistic side of it is, is problematic. But yeah, when it, it brings you stability and comfort and all the beautiful adjectives you used earlier: abundance and rest and peace. This is, this is what it was intended to , not to deprive of a lot people from their dignity.
And I think this is pretty grand what you're doing. And I, I think the way you talk about giving help while helping other people keep their dignity and maintained their autonomy is, is incredibly, somehow revolutionary. And I commend you for that. I wish you all, everything you just just described.
Joy Spencer: I was thinking that I love how so many people referenced our work as being revolutionary. I think the same, I think the same, I think is revolutionary. I think it's bold, I think is innovative and I think it's necessary. And I did to tap into my rebel side, like in meetings and things of that nature.
And when we stick to our values and we say, no, we're going to trust the experience. We're going to trust what folks need. We're going to give them the assistance directly. Now we're not going to ask for verification of their, bill or we're not going to make their supervisor verify their FMLA, benefit bag or any of that.
We're going to trust what we're being told and, , and said, we gave a reason not to. There's clauses and agreements that we sign and things of that nature. But we are not going to make our families jumped through the same hoops that a typical institution would. And that in and of itself is revolutionary.
And that said, right, that trusting people is revolutionary.
Ariane: Trusting people is revolutionary. Yeah. Yeah, it is. It is.
And this whole grassroot movements that are just so, that highlights the importance of local initiatives and yeah, sure, the federal government needs to exist, but they shouldn't be in control of all these things.
They should trust local instances and organizations with their money and just trust that they will do the right thing. And it would alleviate the pain of so many, if they could do exactly what you described.
Because again, if you really need data on top of data it's really proven if you just give people money, they will help themselves and they will thrive and they will like just, just stop trying to control all the wealth and give, give back and be generous with it.
Joy Spencer: And, and like you said, that the data proves it. It's like, okay, we jumped through the hoops that you wanted us to jump through. We did the research. We have guaranteed income programs that are very promising. We have universal basic income programs that have tremendous results. We have like, all the research says it's a, and we are now going to be able to collect some sort of research and data from the child care tax credit which we hope will become more infrastructural, more permanent. But, but we know now that it works, the narrative has shifted the welfare mom, negative stereotype has been debunked.
So let's move forward with. And give families with what better ways to reinvigorate our economy than to give folks what they need to be healthy and contributing members of our society, helping us to generate more attraction, more wealth, more inventions, more. Everything!
Ariane: Generosity and giving back and , like this is, this is how we help each other.
Not by gorging.
Joy Spencer: No, you can't like, how do you expect to, , really have a effective and productive kind of workplaces of everyone's walking around dismal depressed. Don't have their basic needs met. Don't know where they're going to lay their head or have their next meal. I'm not going to be able to perform well at any space.
Yeah,
Ariane: it sounds simple enough. Doesn't it
Joy Spencer: seems that way, , it's common sense. Ain't so common.
Ariane: Unfortunately. They should just listen to moms. We know what we're talking about.
Joy Spencer: Listen to moms. That's the campaign. That's it. That's that's the whole thing. That's the sentence. That's we put a period at the end of that and we can go home.
Exactly. Okay.
Ariane: Super simple. Last questions. Why did you agree to talk with us, with me today?
Joy Spencer: So I'm very adamant these days about letting people know that they are not alone.
That because your postpartum story doesn't look and sound like maybe another postpartum story. It doesn't make you any less than. There was nothing wrong with you. There's nothing wrong with your child. The enormous kind of diversity of experiences is what makes parenthood. That is all a part of it. And so I'm hoping that I was able to bring another perspective to what postpartum may look like and how powerful and resilient we are as parents. What we can overcome and what we can continue to do to help other parents overcome some of those same challenges and to prevent parents from maybe having to experience some of those same challenges.
And so I appreciated the opportunity and the invitation, because I'm not sure if we can ever tell all of the stories of postpartum, but starting the conversation is so, so, so important. It's an unsung story. It's been unsung for way too long. And so I'm appreciative of your work and your project and just shedding light on what postpartum.
Ariane: You use the word unsung story.
And I think I'm going to cry. I think cry. And it's just it's. It's nice. It sounds you started this interview by saying music that's saved your life and now we're singing your a postpartum story and your life story and your work story and your activism story. And I'm beyond grateful for everything you just, you just shared with us.
It's it's pretty sometimes. I don't know how about you? You do this work and you, there are days where you're like, holy moly, why am I doing this again? I'm so tired and it's required so much energy and, and I have nothing left to give.
And then this happens and a connection sparks and the cup fills back and going, you just keep singing.
Joy Spencer: It is a labor of love.
I have always felt that I get my blessings from blessing other people. I am just grateful for the opportunity to be heard. When someone listened to you and you feel seen it's different. Is, is different. You feel that, your experiences weren't in vain and that you matter. And So just you given, leveraging your platform for, for for my voice for multiple voices for, for these experiences is, is, is is life changing to be heard.
It can be life-changing to be heard.
Ariane: I'm going to let that be the last words of this interview.
Thank you so much for your time and your words and your songs and, and everything you do.
Thank you for hearing me and letting me share, like that's really special. So I really appreciate it.
Ariane: Thank you.